Dopa's Formula to Winning Lane vs Counter Picks! | Skill Capped

Skill Capped Challenger LoL Guides extremely helpful when you ask these questions

@Joe Mateo each champion belongs to specific category. Think about wave clear, extended trades, all-ins, and think in which categories you are stronger.

Please keep doing it like this!

If I want to go through these missions for myself in a game, what are the qualities I should look for to see which choices to make?

2/3 went for the haress

Sometimes a jungler forfeits a lane and that has nothing to do with not seeing the gank opportunity but more with valuing his time. Lanes can have different priorities depending on the win conditions. For example you are fiora who really profits from being ahead and you play vs a kennen (aids match up). He can gank you till you are able to win your lane and become a dominant splitpusher, but this will cost a lot of time (resources) from your jungler, so it might be more efficient to focus other lanes like a lucian braum, which are easy to gank and destroy the enemy botlane when ahead. Besides this ganking a weaker lane can also be a risk if you lose the 2 vs 2.
But the counterganks a side. A jungler has a limited amount of time and he needs to play around this. This is also why junglers hate it when they need to help top and bot. In this case, a jungler needs to determine, which lane is most likely going to help getting a victory or should by all means not lose (win condition). If this is bot lane you probably will be the victim of this decision, which sucks. Your job is basically not dying and keeping up with cs instead of winning your lane. Let your botlane carry you. You basically win by preventing the enemy toplaner to snowball.

sylas wants to push the wave here to set up prio for nid then try and get the wave to bounce back to him but dopa prevents the bounce by matching sylas's q and passive with red cards and aa while also harassing him

If the jg was xin sylas would want it to push to avoid a level 2 gank and being forced off the wave

And the crowd shouts Marieta Simongan! Marieta Simongan! Marieta Simongan! Marie ta Simon gan! Marie then Simon is gone!

Usually ranged champ will push for lvl 2 and look to harass his opponent and crash the second wave. That way the third wave will start slowpushing back and he will have to thin it out and freeze anyway. But it all depends on how good is your champ at pushing and whether or not it can match up opponent's damage to the wave.

Because Sylas is not thinking properly. He should've waited and pulled the wave towards his tower to expose TF to ganks.

Yep that's the reason :)

Sylas's Q out-trades anything that early game TF could have returned and so Sylas would get a health advantage

its freezing because sylas will keep pushing anyway. yes, its a slow push if sylas wasnt there, but because he is, its a freeze

Perfect for us Bronze and Silver players lmao

Has to steal lissandra ulti

I think that pushing sylas in level 1 was not an option because of his wave clear, and corruption potion. TF wouldn't win the push, so Sylas could easly control it, and freeze the wave let TF in a bad position, exposed to ganks and Sylas all in.

You can see that, even trying to freeze, there was a time that Dopa couldn't thin the wave enough to prevent it from crashing into the tower. But with his ridiculous knowledge of wave control he were still able to keep the freeze.

This situation only changes when Sylas is out of charges on corruption potion. In that moment Dopa start to slow push the wave and build a minion advantage, applying the ranged vs melee strategy.

@Skill Capped Challenger LoL Guides Thank u

Oops, added!

Same story here although I was once plat, purely due to mechanics, but if you know exactly how to manipulate the wave you can win alot of games

Yes. Might even work better. Going resolve on tf is still viable and picking that into zed ensures that you cant get poked out of lane as well as giving a nice bit of sustain from grasp.

Freezing the wave has more benefits than just setting up easy ganks. It allows you to deny cs whilst csing more safely yourself, not to mention in low elo it baits the enemy into taking unfavorable trades and going for bad all-ins.

it's tricky sometimes, as low elo and high elo don't behave the same
I have been working a lot on freezing in gold elo, and all the sudden't I have not a single gank from my jungler

either you dont shove in, or shove it in hard so it crashes into the tower, then rome

You shouldn't push much like the sylas was doing or shove and roam if u can

@Adapted I'm highlighting a scenario in which both players play optimally. Tf needs to push sufficiently quick to prevent fizz from facetanking minions for a couple of seconds (if he does this for any longer, tf and the minions will deal too much damage). If tf does this successfully, fizz can no longer all in as it will be risky/no longer hold the freeze as he doesn't have the hp/mana to do so. This is where the skill of the player comes in and why losing matchups aren't always lost even at high elo.
Every matchup is decided by who can deplete each others resources the quickest. Tf can force fizz to sacrifice his hp/mana to freeze each wave. Fizz can deplete tf's mana on the wave or as harass.
A good fizz will hold the wave just outside of his turret whilst taking minimum damage. An equally good tf would crash the wave or punish fizz for trying to hold the wave. This scenario is favoured towards tf, so if both players play correctly, tf will normally come out ahead.
This isn't a guaranteed always win your lane strategy; there's too many factors for something like that to exist. This is simply your gameplan of how to build a lead in the safest way.
As for your reoccurring point about freezing from level 1, this is impossible. The wave needs to push towards you (and there aren't any bushes in close proximity like in bot/top lane) for this to happen.
If you "let fizz push", if he's good, he will only last hit. If you match his last hits, the wave will remain in the middle and fizz simply gains free xp. If you don't last hit, the wave will push to you, but fizz will reach level 2 first and can force minion aggro on himself/zone you away (he can also back away and play "safe". If you last hit, the wave will push back into him. If you don't last hit, both waves will die roughly equally, but fizz gets to level 3 with a full mana/hp bar where he can start to threaten an all in). In both scenarios it becomes increasingly difficult for you to contest the wave safely and fizz will reach level 3 relatively unscathed.
The 3 wave bounce is supposed to give you a hp/cs lead and an ideal wave position (yes fizz can try to contest this, but it is still favoured towards tf for reasons stated above). To freeze from the beginning, would require either fizz to play mindlessly (by pushing at level 1) or to put yourself at a cs/exp deficit to achieve (not csing at all) and allows fizz to reach his power spike for free.

Based on the tf vs fizz matchup, I agree that tf can dictate the early waves due to his ranged + abilities advantage. However you are highlighting a perfectly ideal scenario for tf where he can crash the wave whenever he wants and freeze whenever he wants, which in this case tf would NEVER lose against a fizz. But realistically this doesn't happen as a good Fizz would peel the minions from the tower (even if it means to sacrifice some hp) to ensure that the lane is in frozen position ideal for an all in/ganks. Therefore I would argue that again it is always in the best interest for tf (or any laner for the matter) to freeze early to deny the enemy from freezing against them.

@Adapted you should never rely on your opponent playing poorly for you to do well. Fizz shouldn't push the first wave, for the very reason you said above (tf can freeze under turret).
As for fizz setting up a freeze, this is much harder to do because he is melee, has no safe waveclear and has no all in threat yet. In tf vs sylas, tf can setup a freeze, because he can use abilities + autos to thin the wave if necessary, whereas sylas can only use his q. In tf vs fizz, fizz can only use auto attacks (using an ability would leave him vulnerable to poke/harass and zone him from the wave), whereas tf can still use abilities + autos. This means tf can always crash the wave.
You're correct in saying fizz would want to freeze the wave there, but tf gets to dictate what happens in this scenario due to his significant range + waveclear advantage.
If tf allows fizz to set up a freeze and reach level 3, he needs the jungler to come and save his lane, otherwise he has lost.

Shadow Star yeah that’s makes sense - shove the first two waves and freeze it when it bounces back. But as a fizz main myself, I am able to freeze the second wave in front of my tower and stall for my level 3, therefore disallowing a tf main to bounce the wave back. So in tf’s situation, as I said before, wouldn’t it be a better option if he allowed me to push at level 1 so he can just freeze early ?

@Adapted you're only shoving the first 2 waves, which means it's unlikely for the jungler to gank (depends on the champion) and impossible for fizz to all in (requires level 3).
You're right in saying a freeze is safer, but the way to set it up varies between matchups. To set up a freeze, you would need the wave to push towards you (this is why you push the first two waves, so the 3rd wave bounces back).
In tf vs sylas, sylas wants to push the wave (3 wave bounce). This initial push allows tf to set up a freeze. Fizz has no reliable method of pushing the wave or securing last hits away from tower, so the wave would naturally push towards him (tf last hitting cs would be enough to push the wave). It is impossible to set up a freeze in this scenario (wave pushing towards fizz). This would be a reckless version of the 3 wave bounce I mentioned above (it would take longer, potentially giving fizz his level 3 and the enemy jungler a suitable gank window).
The aim is the same, freezing in front of your turret, the way to achieve it is different.

That was luck, dopa not touch the minions

dota 🤷🏻‍♂️

@KRUST NS thx man :)

@PhantomHunter27 ye you too

@KRUST NS stay strong

If sylas doesn't try to crash the wave and instead only last hits, threaten your w, as shown in the video. Force him to use mana to get cs or survive your harass. A slow push takes time to build up. By the time the wave crashes into his turret, you should have a significant health/mana lead on him, as shown in the video.

Syla could use that moment to poke him, its very important for dopa to stay healthy so he doesnt die to a sylas full combo, so its better for him not taking the risk

This ties in with what he does next. He pressures sylas away from cs with his w. He uses this to build a health/mana lead so when the wave does eventually crash, sylas can't do anything.
Also, tanking the minions wouldn't be enough to set up a perma freeze, so this point is moot

But sylas want to push to tf. Sylas would want to freeze only if dopa was low enough to kill, so he can zone tf from cs. Otherwise he had to keep pushing just like before

@Braay14 Games Before those minions hit the tower, they will delay the blue wave, making it slow push automatically. The freeze is handed to him if he wants it.
I never said Sylas wanted to freeze, just that he could. With both a waveclear advantage and a trading advantage, he gets to decide how the lane behaves.
But btw, if your nidalee is neaby and the lane is already pushing to you, it can be worth to freeze even as Sylas. If he freezes there, TF can't walk up to shove (or even farm) untill nidalee leaves.

lmv92x he could freeze from TF shoving not from him letting 3 ranged minions hit a tower. There’s no way Sylas would give up prio in order to sit under tower and safe farm, it’s just not worth it in this matchup

@Braay14 Games No, he's not. Have you never seen champions with tiamat setting up a freeze? If they can do it, so can Sylas. As long as he doen't use his passive in the middle of the wave, he has an easy freeze.

The reason they’re calling it a freeze is because Sylas is a champ that is basically forced to shove

You can always rewatch the video or at least parts of it :) Helps me a lot more than the quick recaps because then you're not skipping information.